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#16 Mike Wright

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 11:17 AM

Rob,

30% improvement using VIP does sound about right for us, but then ... now I think about it ... :) maybe we just weren't very good DS developers in the first place.



Mike
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#17 Rob Donovan

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 11:32 AM

And,

when I release it, if I get a good response, then I can hire people to help with coding.

I want to get some feedback / usage before I do something like that.

Rob D.

#18 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 02:59 PM

Head out of arse mode Rob!

how can you pretend to provide a viable developer solution when your a one man band writing code in your bedroom at night (Sad) and thrive on blinkered self interest projects that skew the value of the technology in your favour.

PROIV can choose many directions for their technology and you will probably be one of the last to react to change. You just keep writing PROIV green screen pro-aide/native apps whilst developing your environment in Microsoft VB! :-"

#19 Cleve Haynes

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 06:56 AM

Head out of arse mode Rob!

how can you pretend to provide a viable developer solution when your (sic) a one man band writing code in your bedroom at night (Sad) and thrive on blinkered self interest projects that skew the value of the technology in your favour.


Dear Guest

I'm not sure I understand why you are making a personal attack on Rob - and doing it anonymously. Calling him "sad" because he chooses to use some of his spare time writing software is a bit harsh. What do you do in your spare time? Ride goats? :) At least Rob is productive in his spare time and doesn't waste it playing PS2 like me (and writing posts like this)... :-"

I'm sure Rob is happy to accept constructive critisism on his function editor. But critisism for critisism's sake is pointless.

Cleve

P.S. I hope you posted through an anonymous proxy... Rob - so who was this "guest"? :)

#20 Joseph Bove

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 08:28 PM

Cleve,

The real irony of that "Guest" post is that ProIV, to my understanding, started as one man spending his spare time writing it.

Other examples abound... Cisco Networks started out of a garage; Dell out of a dorm room.

PROIV can choose many directions for their technology and you will probably be one of the last to react to change.


Big corporations are almost always slower to react to change than smaller ones. That's why they continually acquire small companies that can demonstrate solutions as solutions are all that matters in this industry.

My two cents anyway...

Joseph

#21 Rob Donovan

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 01:23 PM

Hi Guest,

At least post with your real name, if you are going to attack me publicly.

I think that I am quite capable of producing a "viable developer solution". I've been using ProIV for many years and written an editor similar to ProAide many, many years ago. I have a very good understanding of how ProIV works internally, its hardly rocket science to create a function editor... its merely ProISAM files. We write applications to manipulate files every day.

As for "writing code in your bedroom at night"... well technically your correct, my study is supposed to be a 'bedroom' but we have 3 bedrooms and converted one to a study. But thanks for pointing that out.

Since you clearly work for ProIV LTD (UK), I think that you should think about posting insults like this from an anonymous proxy, as Cleve suggests (No Cleve, he was not that clever…) so that you don’t give your company a bad name in the public eye.

thrive on blinkered self interest projects that skew the value of the technology in your favour


I have no clue what you are talking about here... Me producing a function editor as I am will merely help ProIV and not 'skew' it. I am producing it because there is no good editor in my eyes, and other peoples, and to help the ProIV community like I did with this web site.

Why do you think I would be the last to react or continue to use Green Screen? I have helped develop a new GUI part of a system for one employee and worked on other GUI applications before, not just Green Screen. Generally I have worked for large organisations that have not wanted to spend time on the GUI side of things because they wish to enhance their product with features that will get them more business, and when its an internal back office system, GUI is not one of them. Although I have actively tried to convince them to look into the GUI side of things.

Anyway,

Thanks for your extremely valuable help and comments, you are a star...

Rob D.

Thanks to Cleve & Joseph for their comments.

#22 Guest_PROIV User._*

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:29 AM

I feel the urge to rant coming on:

As a long time spectator of PROIV I continue to be disappointed at the
bad technology choices they make and their weak implementation of their
choices in practice. They are totally out of touch with the main trends in
modern computing (as opposed to current marketing buzzwords).
Furthermore, they use their propietary advantage mercilessly to keep the
PROIV developer community off balance to suppress any possibility of any
superior community-based PROIV developer solutions from gaining support.

Rob Donovan's editor has little chance of success. But it is not because he
is not a good programmer. It is because PROIV uses and will continue to use
its propietary advantage against developers. And so developers will be forced
to submit to using their inferior junk forever.

Rob Donovan has provided a PROIV developer forum superior to anything that
PROIV has ever done for developers. This too indicates PROIV's total failure
to this day to grasp both the the technology of the Web and their disdain for
the PROIV developer community.

I can give you a long a list of PROIV technology failures but have neither the
time nor inclination. But for starters:

Their Web solutions are a joke from the point of view of any competent
Web developer: embedding a propietary client in a Web-browser frame
and using telnet protocol inside the HTTP based client? Absence of any
application keep-alive: that is why we have this silly
"how-can-I-stop-the-user-closing-the-client" discussion from time to time.
Using SSL version 2 (insecure and obsolete) in a way which completely
breaks it (no X.509 certificate dialogue, no interaction with client certificate
store, etc ,etc)? XML output which until recently did not even parse correctly
in some cases.

PROIV marketing claims about major programmer productivity gains for VIP
must be taken with a big pinch of salt. Experienced programmers adapt to
any environment - even a bad one. Coding is not the only major component
in the software development life cycle. In this day of light-weight Web-based
user interfaces and B2B applications the focus by PROIV on a clunky propietary
GUI client seems very dubious.

Hey PROIV: IT IS THE SERVER, STUPID!

#23 Mike Wright

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 07:29 AM

Head out of arse mode Rob!

how can you pretend to provide a viable developer solution when your a one man band writing code in your bedroom at night (Sad) and thrive on blinkered self interest projects that skew the value of the technology in your favour.

Guest,

Why not wait until you see the results before knocking it.

If it's crap, then I'm sure you will have a big smile on your face. ( The Germans have a word for this - "Schadenfreude". )

If it's great, then it will benefit the Pro-IV community and some of our application development will improve. What's wrong with that ???

I say well done to Rob for at least getting off his ass and trying something. Remember, he's not taking a direct swipe at VIP - he's just writing something that could be used as an alternative. As a developer, I would love the choice between two (or more) good development environments.

And as for what he does in the bedroom at night - well that just none of our business :)

Mike
Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#24 Donald Miller

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 08:46 AM

How many of you that critisise Pro IV Ltd actually talk to them on an individual basis ?

When was the last time that you asked them for information or help through the appropriate channels ?

If you don't find out what they are doing, where they are going, and why they are doing it, how can you make a judgement on their progress ?

I've been working with them since the early eighties and whilst it's not all gone my way and there have been issues that may not have been resolved satisfactorily, they are still here, we are still working together, and they are doing more business in a more proactive manner than ever before. In business if you don't compromise and work out solutions for all involved then you can't survive.

They also realise that there are hundreds of individuals in the market place that can help them develop their business (us) whilst at the same time helping us to develop ours.

If you want to slag people off publicly who are trying to help you then you've got a lot to learn.
Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anytthing at all

#25 Chris Pepper

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 09:34 AM

I've noticed that very little constructive has ever been posted by anonymous contributors.

Rob is perfectly entitled to develop a useful tool - and who is to say that it will not be bought by ProIV in the fullness of time - Pro-Aide was mainly developed by one person (Andrew) as a practical tool for a particular project (RAC); then bought by ProIV; so was Superlayer (Vijay) (Chess) then bought by MDIS for that matter!!!

I'm sure that Neil & the VIP team are genuinely trying to create the best tool that they can.

ProIV are just trying to survive.

I'm just one of the "server" guys who doesn't need to worry about the ProIV gui! Keep the green screen faith (although my terminal emulator has Blue on a tasteful grey/gray background).



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