Has anyone tried to obtain the v5
bootstrap defs from p4?
If so, do they understand why have they now become a
chargeable item?
This is new to me - previously they were available
subject to NDA.
Why the change? Is everyone else prepared to pay
about 9 grand (sterling) for these items which are
required to properly migrate to v5 from earlier
releases?
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Bootstrap definitions
Started by
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, Mar 04 2003 05:01 PM
12 replies to this topic
#2
Rob Donovan
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Posted 04 March 2003 - 11:11 PM
Hi,
I have never heard someone pay for the bootstrap files.
We got the 5.0 bootstraps and did not have to pay for them.
Is it ProIV LTD who is asking for money, or is it a 3rd party var?
Rob D.
I have never heard someone pay for the bootstrap files.
We got the 5.0 bootstraps and did not have to pay for them.
Is it ProIV LTD who is asking for money, or is it a 3rd party var?
Rob D.
#4
George Macken
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Posted 05 March 2003 - 09:54 AM
I cannot remember the exact site/cutomer - but during the last 2 months, one of the sites/firms I work with also needed the bootstraps - I recollect they told me they were paying approx £500stg for these from PRO-IV (maybe this is not accurate). You should contact PRO-IV directly for costs of these.
George
George
#5
Mike Schoen
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Posted 05 March 2003 - 02:08 PM
When we began the migration to 5.0 last year, we got the bootstraps from pro-iv directly, after signing the NDA.
There was no cost involved at the time.
Hearing that a third party wants large sums of money makes me suspicious that they are trying to pull a fast one...
There was no cost involved at the time.
Hearing that a third party wants large sums of money makes me suspicious that they are trying to pull a fast one...
#7
Guest_ScottM_*
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Posted 07 March 2003 - 10:13 AM
'We got the 5.0 bootstraps in Sweden and did not have to pay for them'
Did you get them from ProIV Ltd, or did you work them out for yourself smartypants?
In my previous employment when ProIV Ltd were demoing V5 I asked if we would be supplied with a logic scanner( ie one, that could scan more than one function at a time, unlike the one supplied with SL).
Strangley, the response was, 'Why would you want such a thing?'
I suggested that if we had the the bootstrap fds we could write our own one but I was aware this was a point of contention. Apparantly it was no problem and we only had to ask????
A couple of weeks passed and I asked for the bootstrap fds only to be asked,'why on earth would you want them?'.
I explained why, but never got a response. Call me cynical, but I cant help thinking that once they had the commitment to go with version 5 they completly lost interest.
Grrrrrrrr!!!!!
Did you get them from ProIV Ltd, or did you work them out for yourself smartypants?
In my previous employment when ProIV Ltd were demoing V5 I asked if we would be supplied with a logic scanner( ie one, that could scan more than one function at a time, unlike the one supplied with SL).
Strangley, the response was, 'Why would you want such a thing?'
I suggested that if we had the the bootstrap fds we could write our own one but I was aware this was a point of contention. Apparantly it was no problem and we only had to ask????
A couple of weeks passed and I asked for the bootstrap fds only to be asked,'why on earth would you want them?'.
I explained why, but never got a response. Call me cynical, but I cant help thinking that once they had the commitment to go with version 5 they completly lost interest.
Grrrrrrrr!!!!!
#8
Rob Donovan
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Posted 07 March 2003 - 10:46 AM
'Did you get them from ProIV Ltd, or did you work them out for yourself smartypants?'
I have my own version of the Bootstraps, but we also got the official ones from ProIV LTD.
Rob D.
I have my own version of the Bootstraps, but we also got the official ones from ProIV LTD.
Rob D.
#10
Dan Shannon
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Posted 07 March 2003 - 12:19 PM
All the companies I've ever worked for got the bootstraps by asking for them nicely, and signing an NDA. Nobody ever paid for them to the best of my knowledge. This includes the v5.0 bootstraps.
PRO-IV were even nice enough to send me (at a former employer) ALL the code for Native v2.2 once, but I suspect that was a mistake. Anyway it was pretty 'orrible stuff, once I'd had a peek at @CREATEU (physical file creation) I gave up and lost the disk.
How do you work them out? It's not that hard really, because of the way that the physical layout of a PRO-ISAM record works, it's pretty easy to reverse engineer a file definition - mostly it's just boring working out which field is what (which can take bloody ages if it's a complex definition). And they don't change all that much from version to version (mostly just adding new fields) so doing it once is usually enough. Of course I've never done it on the bootstraps, that would be naughty
I do seem to remember that there is some clause in the license expressly forbidding such reverse engineering of PRO-IV, so doing so would probably invalidate your license...
But I'm still surprised that anyone's asking for money for the bootstrap definitions - it's a bit rude really. They SHOULD be part of the kit you get with a development license - after all if you really want to you can find the Oracle bootstrap table definitions in there somewhere (not that they're terribly useful).
My advice is to stick to your guns, don't pay for them. Try your VAR, someone else's VAR, support in the UK, and support in the US, if all else fails convert to COBOL (no, don't!)
PRO-IV were even nice enough to send me (at a former employer) ALL the code for Native v2.2 once, but I suspect that was a mistake. Anyway it was pretty 'orrible stuff, once I'd had a peek at @CREATEU (physical file creation) I gave up and lost the disk.
How do you work them out? It's not that hard really, because of the way that the physical layout of a PRO-ISAM record works, it's pretty easy to reverse engineer a file definition - mostly it's just boring working out which field is what (which can take bloody ages if it's a complex definition). And they don't change all that much from version to version (mostly just adding new fields) so doing it once is usually enough. Of course I've never done it on the bootstraps, that would be naughty
I do seem to remember that there is some clause in the license expressly forbidding such reverse engineering of PRO-IV, so doing so would probably invalidate your license...
But I'm still surprised that anyone's asking for money for the bootstrap definitions - it's a bit rude really. They SHOULD be part of the kit you get with a development license - after all if you really want to you can find the Oracle bootstrap table definitions in there somewhere (not that they're terribly useful).
My advice is to stick to your guns, don't pay for them. Try your VAR, someone else's VAR, support in the UK, and support in the US, if all else fails convert to COBOL (no, don't!)
#12
Rob Donovan
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Posted 08 March 2003 - 01:35 AM
Cheryl,
Can you not get them from ProIV LTD?
Rob D.
Can you not get them from ProIV LTD?
Rob D.
#13
Rob Donovan
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Posted 08 March 2003 - 02:00 AM
I think Dan covered most of it....
The reason I worked out my own was because when I first started in ProIV, Version 1.2 there was no way that ProIV LTD were going to give us the bootstraps.
So I worked them out my self, and then I wrote a function editor much like ProAide.
It helped me/my company write code alot quicker, and made ProIV a bit nicer to use.
If I had not had access to the bootstrap files over the last 13 years, I could not have done my job as well as I can now I have them.
As I have said (any just about ANY other ProIV developer will, apart from ProIV LTD) they should have come standard with ProIV.
Rob D.
The reason I worked out my own was because when I first started in ProIV, Version 1.2 there was no way that ProIV LTD were going to give us the bootstraps.
So I worked them out my self, and then I wrote a function editor much like ProAide.
It helped me/my company write code alot quicker, and made ProIV a bit nicer to use.
If I had not had access to the bootstrap files over the last 13 years, I could not have done my job as well as I can now I have them.
As I have said (any just about ANY other ProIV developer will, apart from ProIV LTD) they should have come standard with ProIV.
Rob D.
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