12 replies to this topic

[Fred Marker]

I have heard that Pro IV is asking for a $150 per user surcharge to upgrade to Version 5? Is this correct?

If we have to pay a surcharge to get upgrades, what are we getting for the 17% annual maintenance fees we pay?

This is also particularly disturbing with the 'end of life' date for version 4.x being Sept 2002 - giving us very little time to make the conversion and complete testing!

Talk about putting customers between a rock and a hard place.....

[Rob Donovan]

Hi,

Yep, there is a charge for 5.0 upgrade. Is that cost US$ or AUS$ and was it for Dev or Runtime? I would be interested.

Most companies do charge for upgrades to their software, so this is quite normal, even though the things in version 5 should have been around ALOT earlier (like in V3.0 when it was released!)

If you really want some fun, ask them for a quota on a license that you can move around machines (rather than being tied to 1 CPU)..... We could not believe it!

Sept 2002 is also very worrying too, esp. if you are on SuperLayer!!!

Rob D

[Fred Marker]

That's $150 US and is for Runtime! I haven't heard if there is a different charge for Dev.

[DARREN]

Development is free if you are on maintenance. Along with :-

The webclient
Bus & tasks
multi-column list boxes with auto sort
set properties
methods
memory files
xml output
new development environment
etc...

and coming soon...activeX in PROIV


Not bad for 150 notes. Try going to Magic or Oracle and see how much they charge for an upgrade. Alternatively, try taking your 1980's MKII escort down the local Ford dealer and ask them to swap it for the shiny new Focus sitting in the window at no cost.

I don't want to windge, nor start a really long thread that turns into a slagging match and goes on for ever, but taking my PROIV company hat off for a second I would just like to say that if it is thought PROIV is expensive and is not good value for money, just price up the alternatives. Yes, V.B. and others don't charge for run-time, but it will cost ten times the amount in development costs (at least).

Also, PROIV has some of the best developers in the world, and believe it or not they want paying for the work they do (a little unreasonable to some lines of thinking) and one of PROIV's revenue streams that helps pay for it is the license revenue.

I cann't remember the exact figure, but something like 75% of of revenues received goes straight back into the product.

We do our best with what we receive. We, like other companies, are in business to make a profit, but it is also more than that. The developers also have allot of pride in knowing that companies around the world, large and small, are running their businesses on apps written in PROIV.

end of windge

And now the lines that hopefully stops me from getting fired..

The above points of view are my own and do not expressly represent the views of PROIV Inc. and/or any of its affiliated companies.

[Fred Marker]

We don't want to prevent you from making a living or Pro IV from making a profit.

However, one can still buy petrol, oil, tires, oil filters, air filters, hoses, etc. to keep the 1980 Ford running for as long as he/she likes. Ford does not hold a magic 'activation key' that may someday prevent you from driving your 1980 model after September 19, 2002.

If a company has paid its Pro IV license fees but wants to stay on version 4.6 indefinitely, will Pro IV issue new activation keys in the event of a hardware or OS problem even IF the company has not upgraded to v 5 and has not paid annual maintenance fees AFTER September 2002?

[Simon Scott]

OK, so let me spill my guts

My point of view - if you are going to buy proprietary systems like PROIV, Oracle et al, expect that sooner or later you will have to drop your pants and hand them the KY.

A company I recently did work for doesnt even run syperlayer, and has no use for web stuff etc. They are locked into PROIV due to management incompetencies years ago. Most of their business logic is tied up in PRO-IV.

Should PRO-IV screw them? Hell yes. This is business, and PRO-IV is out to make a profit, and nothing else. Once you are locked into a proprietary solution, you have few options. Look at Microsoft and the desktop, and then look at PRO-IV. I guess we can thank PRO-IV for being kind enough to use the KY.

Ive done a lot of PRO-IV work, and have also worked in other technologies. I like PRO-IV, I think it is possibly the best RAD tool Ive seen. However, if you dont like proprietary lock-in, use non-proprietary (open source, free software, call it what you like) solutions. Web based app? PHP on MySQL or Postgresql. Major data-munging? PERL.

If you want your hand held by a major corporation, youre in the wrong business. We've all seen the 'support' these companies provide, you are better off on your own I reckon.

What Im basically saying is if companies want to whinge about $150 per seat, tell them that maybe they should have thought about that before committing to a proprietary system. Hell, I know of companies who *still* buy proprietary unix (SCO, HP-UX or whatever) over using Linux or *BSD.

They get what they deserve. Managers who make decisions based on protecting their own jobs bring this on, and I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Go screw em PROIV.

[Rob Donovan]

Hi,

Thats about the same as us, however there IS a charge for Developemnt (or at least for us) and that is MUCH more than the runtime costs.

Rob D

[Richard Bassett]

I recently attended a V5 roadshow in the UK.

The UK prices that were presented were:

New V5 licenses
---------------
GBP 330 per runtime user
GBP 2700 per development user
plus GBP 65 per database interface per user

Upgrades of existing licenses
-----------------------------
33% of the price of new license eg:
GBP 110 per runtime user
GBP 900 per development user
plus GBP 22 per database interface per user

I have since asked whether maintenance will still be chargeable in the year of an upgrade and whether maintenance for V5 will be remaining at 15%. I have had no reply to either question yet.

Personally I have to say I am disappointed to have paid 15% maintenance for years only to be told an upgrade isn't included :-(

However, I think we have to assume that this is the price to pay for keeping ProIV going when there are few new development projects in the language.

[Rob Donovan]

Hi Richard,

Are you sure about the Runtime cost of £330?

Thanks,

Rob D

[Rob Donovan]

Richard,

Sorry, ignore the runtime cost question, my mistake, i forgot we have the C-ISAM interface...

Rob D

[Joseph Serra]

It does seem perfectly reasonable to me that a charge is associated to an upgrade in Version of software. The development that goes into bringing V5.0 to market must be quite significant.

It also seems reasonable that a 'quality' product should be highly priced. I think there would be less winging about licence costs if the ProIV community had some real quality and value for money.

As we are using a car comparison, it does seem that the ProIV community has been driving a



when we have been paying for a



I am not suggesting that the Lada Riva is not a satisfactory vehicle, I am sure that it good little run around. But it has been reknown for its quality issues.

It seems we are paying for the Mercedes SLK with leather trim and heated seats. It should therefore run with the reliability to match.

[Steve Kiernan]

Surely the issue here is that we all pay maintenance (was 15%, soon to be 17.5) - why the hell do we pay this AND also an upgrade fee too?

What's the point of paying maintenance if it's not to get the latest releases and versions.

PRO-IV ripped us off in a similar fashion last time (when version 4 came out), and I'm sure they will do the same when version 6 appears.

It wouldn't be so bad if the product could (and it never will) keep up with other applications - we're always several years behind it seems in being able to use the latest windows features, and always several months away (if we're lucky) from getting a fix to known issues

[Fred Marker]

It's not a matter of getting something free! We already paid more than $6,000 US per year for maintenance.

The issue is the 'knife to the throat': the threat that Pro IV will not issue a new activation key for a version early than 5.0 in the event of a hardware or OS problem that renders our legally licensed software useless!

We've paid the original license fee; we've paid the annual maintenance fees for years; we want to stay on v 4.6 because it works for our application and we don't want to upgrade; give us a permanent activation key and let us continue our business as we choose!