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#16 Mike Schoen

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 01:37 PM

Does anyone using and happy with VIP have any experience as to how easy it is to extend VIP to add in automatic code changes?

Over the years we have developed a tool that does a lot of automatic code generation and rules checking for us.
It does things like this:
add printer select and setup to client menu for all screen functions
performs 40+ rule checks to enforce specific locking procedures for oracle tables
validate filedef changes have appropriate external variable fields set for oracle
default code to add in sql selects as required,
etc.

We are also currently writing a tool to take all oracle filedefs and rewrite them to mssql so we can develop in oracle, and port easily to mssql as required.

Is this possible to do in VIP? From what I recall of reading the documentation regarding VIP hooks, we dont have as much freedom to generate and check code as with the native bootstraps.

#17 Joseph Bove

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 01:52 PM

Mike,

We're very much in the same boat as you. We've posed our questions directly to the US office and are hoping for a positive response.

Here would be the ultimate solution - IMO.

Take the core functionality of VIP (genning, imports, etc) and have them be callable global functions. These callable globals would be maintained by ProIV with every new version.

Then, take the front end screens and release the source code of them under the same confidentiality agreement that the bootstraps are released with.

We need to use VIP, because this is the direction that ProIV wants to go in. Like any change, it runs into a horde of chocolate / vanilla issues with the end users. At the end of the day though, our business needs are to be on a supported platform.

Right now, we have to wait on ProIV to make changes to VIP because certain aspects of it won't fulfill our business needs. If our business needs are so unique that they are not on the radar screen, we'll have to recode the solution for VIP as we did for native. This is a very time consuming proposition though.

Almost all of our issues would be immediately resolvable if we had ProIV supplied global functions for core VIP functionality. And, we would be happy VIP campers - maybe even very happy VIP campers.

By the same token, I imagine a large number of developers would be happy to make simple changes to the VIP front-end screens to make them easier to use, enforce company specific conventions, or just more intuitve.

I would think that that would be the ultimate win-win. ProIV could then say to the more animated malcontents, "Here, you can now control the front end. Be happy, pick flowers and sing." (Of course, they'd probably want to use a more business oriented directive) At the same time, they would still have the necessary version control of the core functionality that they need to have and we need them to have.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Regards,

Joseph

#18 Rob Donovan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 03:19 PM

How about going back to the Native boots only..... and make VIP work with them correctly, without having to make copies.

Then all will be happy, it will be fast, and peoples utilities and code generators that they have spent many years creating will still work.

I cant see why we need the VIP bootstraps, they are just basically a copy of the native boots.

Rob.

#19 Joseph Bove

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 05:06 PM

Rob,

How about going back to the Native boots only..... and make VIP work with them correctly, without having to make copies.


Your point is very well made.

I suspect two underlying reasons for why decisions were made. One is that they felt they had to retire Native, Super Layer and Dev Studio. I would suspect that the varied platforms were causing significant maintenance issues.

The other reason I suspect is that VIP was a foray into radical change of the bootstraps for Version 6.0 - namely the 32 character function names. I don't know, but hope the version 6 will also increase the maximum function and logic sizes as well.

I suspect that there were other reasons as well.

I also wrote my post from the point of view that Native is dead in the eyes of ProIV. Therefore, I'd rather fight a battle that I might be able to win. Give us a customizable tool set for VIP and we will mostly be happy - after getting it configured the way each of our business needs require.

One of the most powerful things we did within one of our applications was to design a Customizable Screen Generation tool. It allows our clients to generate multiple order entry screens based on only the fields they want to track. It embeds the business logic that we need. Our clients have been very happy with it. It's had a very positive impact on our sales. It makes our product easier for our end-users.

I would love to see that approach with VIP - a customizable development environment. Let me dictate my business needs (consistent forms design, univeral auditing, etc.) into the VIP development environment and then the productivity of every person in our company increases.

Anyhow... here's hoping.

Regards,

Joseph

#20 Rob Donovan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 05:22 PM

I see,

I think it’s a very large mistake for ProIV to think that Native is dead though, there are an awful lot of people still coding in Native and some huge applications....

The VIP bootstraps are just copies of the Native ones, with a few extra fields at the end, and then lots of Xref files. The 32 char function name had to be applied to the native boots also, since we are still genning from native.....

Alot of the VIP*.pro files just map directly to functdef.pro, lsdef.pro etc.

All the data needs to be in both Native boots and VIP boots for the kernel to work.

If they had just made VIP edit the native boots, and let companies migrate to VIP if they wanted to, then the people who did not want to migrate to VIP could still get the new kernel versions. VIP will only alienate them now.

Since ProIV sites are inherently slow and hesitant at moving to new versions, making it harder for them was not a good idea. IMO

The excuse that the language cannot 'progress' because of the native boots is not really valid in my opinion either. I've managed to create a full development environment, using the Native boots.

Rob.

#21 Rob Donovan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 05:34 PM

Actually......

Thinking about it, if you have got code generators and checkers etc, that work in native, you should still be able to use them, because your end code is still in Native, so they should still work.

Any 'auto' created code would not be viewable in VIP, but then who cares, because its auto gennerated code anyway....

Maybe thats a solution????

I havent looked into this much, it just came to me, so it might need some thinking about, but it should work I guess.

You could even use ProIV IDE, if you needed to view the native side. Since ProIV IDE will still look at the native.

Rob D.

#22 Joseph Bove

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 07:40 PM

Rob,

My understanding is that version 6.0 has no support for the native boots. Everything has to be exported and reimported...

I would love to be misinformed on that.

Regards,

Joseph

#23 Rob Donovan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 08:37 PM

I'm on the v6 beta trail, and therefor am bound by a 'secrecy' agreement.

However, I'm not sure that if I answer your question I might be in violation of that agreement, so I will contact ProIV and see if I can answer it or not......

I cant belive that something so 'broad' as that is restricted, but I better check first ;)

Rob D.

#24 Chris Mackenzie

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 11:12 AM

I've been using IDE for the last 3 years full time, on all my ProIV development. Lots of software remain in Beta stage, and is still in a usable state.

I'm actually going to drop the 'beta' label soon, as I've decided to go with a model of 'rolling' updates, that is used more and more nower days, rather that releasing huge new versions every 2 years. This will allow me to quickly enhance and add new features, and keep up with my users needs.

VIP was for many years in a state that was not even worth a Beta level, but it was being forced on us.

I used VIP 3 years ago, for a 6 month project to convert a ProIV GUI system to use more of the 5.0 features. That project failed due to the condition of VIP and slow development times.

Since then I have kept up with the new version of VIP just to see how its going, and what has changed. VIP is now alot more stable and not too many bugs in, but the overall design is still very bad in my opinion.

I even converted a huge system to VIP and gave it to all the developers I was working with for a week to look at, and not one of the developers had anything good to say, and they certainly did not want to move their system to it.

I would hardly call VIP new now, since its been around for 5, years.

People who I've given IDE to, have taken to it immediatly with very little learning curve, where as we keep being told with VIP, that we need to persist and after a while we will like it.

I have coded in many languages, and using VIP to code ProIV has been the worst experience I've had for 20 years.

That kind of explains why you like VIP so much ;), since you seem to not like Windows.

Windows is here to stay, for the foreseeable future at least, and although OSs like Mac OSX are better looking, Windows UI is the next best thing in my opinion.

What problems have you had with ProIV, that are down to Windows, rather than the way that ProIV is working?

I had to make a decision of what language to write ProIV IDE in, and it made sense at the time to use VB, since it offered all the things I need.

Writing IDE in Java, may well gain a few 'converts', but it certainly would not be on my priority list. Since most people around the world use Windows, and know how that works, I'll kept it in VB, until the Unix Client world becomes more 'main stream'. Then maybe I would convert it.

Just out of interest, what advantages would I get from writing IDE in Java, instead of VB? Apart for winning over people who hate Windows.

Thanks,

Rob D.

Rob,

I would have rated myself as above average with ProAide and I liked
it a lot - but to make a living I had to move on. Sure there are loads
of issues with VIP but it is a very productive environment once you get
used to it.


Anyway, one of the things I used to like about Pro-IV was the multi
platform capability - that's why I advocate Java for the client.

'Hate windows' is a bit strong, I'm hardly a gung-ho open source
advocate but I would like to have a linux desktop if I could.
The windows monopoly is not good for innovation etc etc. blah blah blah
if more apps were written with Linux in mind the user takeup would
increase.


BTW the VIP boots are not exactly the same as native, there
are things going on. E.g. function interfaces, VIP lets you
use pretty much what name you want for an interface
and at build time translates those meaningful names into
a numeric sequence on GLFINTFS
The content and views expressed in this message are those
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#25 SteveHoughton

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 11:19 AM

Rob,

My understanding is that version 6.0 has no support for the native boots. Everything has to be exported and reimported...

I would love to be misinformed on that.

Regards,

Joseph

Joseph

Version 6 has 32 character filenames and function names and is no longer compatible with any native environment!

Until Rob gets IDE working for Version 6 it's just VIP from now on!!

#26 Matthews Estrice

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 12:16 PM

Hi Lewis,

I have not yet used ProAide.I like Rob's IDE of which I had not fully tested.
I was reading Bruce Eckel's JAVA book called (THINKING IN JAVA) books and It was shocking to hear his findings about ActiveX controls over the Web. If you interested, I think the books can be found in google web search engin.His views were quiet interesting when he said I quote 'The easy way to crash the server machine, is by deploying ActixeX control on the Web'.

Perhaps it is about time for me to look at Rob's IDE and Proaide, as it seems to be fast.
But I am still convinced that ProIv version 6 can offer almost the same as any other Object Oriented languages can offer such as Good look and feel, using a preferred IDE to enhance the existing system.And this is running on VIP boostraps and platform independent.

The questions are :-
1. Does ProAide and Rob's IDE offer thinks like web services,XML reportings,CSV files, Comma delimited files etc?
2. Will the above mentioned be a long term investment for clients?
3. Will the two be stable as PROIV kept its promise for 2 centuries and deliver now?
4. Is the processing fast?
5. Are they stable and quick to deliver?
6. If they can give same features as version 6 is,
Then I will recommend them to management for new projects.

I don't say that VIP is the best development tool,but what I am saying is that there is always a room for improvement for PROIV.VIP is very closed,quick to deliver and understandable.Easy to learn.
I cannot tell a story about the two development tools as Rob's IDE came after I finished to re-write one of our customers on VIP.I even communicated with Rob about getting to know his IDE.

Deploying Intranet with FLASH on web application on PROIV browser on Windows XP.It is a coolest 'PROIV' application one could sell to customer.

I know how costly and stressful to rewrite a system from scratch using a differrent language.I need some advice.
Is ProAide or VIP a better PROIV development tool than PROIV version 6?

Matthews

#27 Lewis Mccabe

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 01:23 PM

Thanks Mathews,

Since our entire business is built on our PRO-IV application, it is imperative for us to be on a supported IDE. That is why I was looking for a comparison between PRO-IV/VIP and other main stream languages.

If a particular PRO-IV IDE was unquestionably better than VIP we would certainly look into it. Whether or not we ended up using it for development is quite another story.

Lew

#28 Matthews Estrice

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 01:39 PM

Hi Lewis,

It has been confirm by Mike.
I picked up this url from google
http://www.proivrc.c...=2&t=316&p=5324

Regards
Matthews

#29 Rob Atherton

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 01:13 PM

The discussion is getting confused between ProIV (the language) and VIP (the development tool).

I have no objection to people using and loving VIP if they so wish. Some people like fat birds. What I do have a problem with is that we are being forced to use it with no alternative.

Why do we need to be limited to a single development tool? This narrow-minded approach will not allow the language to develop. If there is no competition for a better development tool, there is little incentive to improve it. If a company has the fear of losing customers to a rival then it will always be looking for an edge to make their product better which can only be good for all of us.

#30 Rob Donovan

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:03 PM

Rob,

My understanding is that version 6.0 has no support for the native boots. Everything has to be exported and reimported...

I would love to be misinformed on that.

Regards,

Joseph

Joseph,

See my post below...

http://www.proivrc.c...=ST&f=10&t=3078

Rob.



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