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What environment are you using the most?


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Poll: What environment are you using the most? (149 member(s) have cast votes)

What environment are you using the most?

  1. Native (@MOD) (34 votes [22.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.82%

  2. Native (@MOD Glovia) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Native (ProAide) (11 votes [7.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.38%

  4. Native (Dev Studio) (12 votes [8.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.05%

  5. SuperLayer (15 votes [10.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.07%

  6. SuperLayer (Glovia) (28 votes [18.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.79%

  7. VIP (42 votes [28.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.19%

  8. Other (7 votes [4.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.70%

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#46 Mike Nicholson

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 11:06 PM

Careful Lee . . . there are things you might not want mentioned too :-"

#47 Guest_Guest_Lee Mulheron_*

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 09:16 AM

Yeah, now I remember ... :( AND there are pictures !!!

Your seedy secrets are safe Rob. Sorry to have diverted attention from the VIP bashing...

#48 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 04:40 PM

Wow! I didn't realize Papa Lazarou is a ProIV coder now. And you've got up to speed pretty quickly after leaving the League of Gentlemen.

The version of VIP we have here is a little on the old side (build 5,5919 - it has a build date of 23/06/2004). However, we've used this to build production functionality (to a much higher standard than that of VIP I must add). I have had a look at the other forums here and it seems that there's a new version of the kernel or client produced every five minutes, so I imagine most of my criticisms have been addressed by now...(nods of agreement from the the ProIV big guns).

But this doesn't blow my original arguments. This product should have worked straight out the box (they should have tested it). I can't be bothered to fanny around with patches and builds to get something working as it should have done in the first place. After all, I'm a developer, and I was born to code.

It's a case of "Give us the tools and we will finish the job" to quote a past British PM.

...or in the case of Papa Lazarou, "can I speak to Dave please?"

#49 Joseph Serra

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 01:28 AM

The version of VIP we have here is a little on the old side (build 5,5919 - it has a build date of 23/06/2004).  However, we've used this to build production functionality (to a much higher standard than that of VIP I must add).  I have had a look at the other forums here and it seems that there's a new version of the kernel or client produced every five minutes, so I imagine most of my criticisms have been addressed by now...(nods of agreement from the the ProIV big guns).

I find it hard to believe that ProIV have reviewed their standards policies within in the last 6 months and resolved the GUI artefacts inconsistency issue that you have mentioned. Nor do I think they have reviewed the overall poor placement of the buttons that you mentioned. And I really doubt that they have worked on improving the behaviour of the tools and windows to make them more "Windows" familiar.

I remember VIP from the early days and I was a harsh critic then. I know a lot of work has been done since this beast was originally created, but let's face it, not that much has changed. I will definitely agree that the product does not crash as much as it used to, overall performance has been improved and many bugs have been fixed. But my criticism has never been about the bugs.

The fundamental design has not been improved. It has not been designed well from the beginning. And few standards have been are visible to the developer. That leaves a higher than necessary learning curve and less productivity. VIP should be completely intuitive because the standards should be well known to anyone that has ever used a computer with Microsoft Windows XP installed. VIP is also not as powerful as it should be; the user interface is not easy to use, just try and edit an existing screen and make 5 fields bold and display only.

Now I have gone through my learning curve with VIP, I can admit that it is faster than using @MODX. I notice that most people in this thread who have defended VIP have mentioned they were using @MODX previous to VIP, so of course they will notice an improvement. But when comparing VIP to ProAide, I can't really see a dramatic improvement in productivity (and if I had the choice, I know it's less frustrating to use ProAide).

There are some nice features in VIP which I like and I would use it on a daily basis (but I know my daily stress and frustration levels would unnecesarily increase dramatically). But as a tool it lacks in many ways and is not up to today's standard of developement tool.

I think Tyrone has the right attitude. Us developers should be less tolerant with ProIV and complain when they produce sub standard tools for us to use. ProIV do listen sometimes (admittedly a bit selectively), but if enough people express their dissatisfaction, who knows what might happen. They have surprised me in the past.

I wonder what the Linux community thought of VIP when they received their complimentary version of ProIV single developer on the front of their favourite Linux magazine... :(

#50 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 01:46 AM

Does anyone have any information as to whether there will ever be an end of life date for @MOD?

#51 Rob Donovan

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 05:01 AM

This is the only thing I could find about Single Developer and Linux...

http://lxer.com/modu...ire/view/29181/

It was on the front of a Linux mag in March, I think it was "Linux User" in the UK.

Their web site it down a the mo, but its...

http://www.linuxuser.co.uk


I think that @MOD has been unsupported since Sept 2004. It shouldnt make much difference though because ProIV still works at a native level so native still has to work. I just means you cant raise any bugs against it, really. And many people are still using it.

Rob D

#52 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 12:54 PM

If @MOD is unsupported, then they should stop charging support fees...right??

#53 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 03:03 PM

You know, the more I use VIP, (with its misleading use of the words 'object', 'property' and 'method'), the more it reminds me of my local village amateur dramatics society, and their recent pantomime, "Slingedtogetha". It's a series of song and dance routines built around a hopeless young blonde object which has no parents and no inheritance, which is appropriated by ugly sisters. These suspicious characters have lost focus (and the plot as well, quite franky). She's given a glass slipper and a few other completely useless properties to which only she has access. Her methods are bizarre and undocumented, all subject to the strange timing cycle involving pumpkins. Meanwhile there are other strange objects floating around like the handsome prince, who lives at a designer Studio. Unfortunately every time we see his luxurious pad, there's loud crashing of scenery as the props are dragged inexpertly across the stage. The only object we can remotely trust in the whole sorry story is Buttons.

I'm looking forward to their next production, "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Teapot Factory".

#54 Donald Miller

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 08:48 PM

Tyrone - all your hassle with VIP hasn't blunted your razor sharp wit and good humour.

Maybe your smiling at VIP now instead of glowering ?

Or is that too much to ask ?
Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anytthing at all

#55 Rob Atherton

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 01:06 PM

For those who care, which probably isn't anyone, Tyrone has now left our company after using VIP. Not only has he left our company, he has moved away from ProIV in disgust and started a career in the lucrative world of .NET

Out of respect for Tyrone, I will not programme in VIP.

Tyrone Hopes, gone but not forgotten.

#56 Joseph Bove

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 08:54 PM

Rob,


For those who care, which probably isn't anyone, Tyrone has now left our company after using VI


I care - to an extent. As a principal in a company that uses ProIV (and dabbles in VIP), I want to hear that VIP is starting to attract a larger following.

Obviously, people will always leave one technology for another - and usually be quite animated in their reasons for doing so.

Boards like this can give a pretty skewed view too because they attract far more rants than raves.

I would be curious to hear about folks who have never used ProIV, but picked up and started using VIP because they found it powerful.

Too bad that it didn't work out for Tyrone...

Regards,

Joseph

#57 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:18 AM

I would be curious to hear about folks who have never used ProIV, but picked up and started using VIP because they found it powerful.

LOL. I'd be amazed if you ever hear of any of those. instead you're going to see stuff like this
And no, neither of the posts there was anything to do with me.

#58 Mike Wright

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 10:08 AM

Tyrone has now left our company after using VIP. Not only has he left our company, he has moved away from ProIV in disgust and started a career in the lucrative world of .NET

So, he's projecting his unique combination of bile, angst and sarcastic humour towards .NET now.

How lovely for the .NET community.

:D

He is sadly missed though. I loved his posts. Mad as a fish, but strangely compelling - like a car crash.
Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#59 Rob Atherton

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 02:17 PM

Rob,


For those who care, which probably isn't anyone, Tyrone has now left our company after using VI


I care - to an extent. As a principal in a company that uses ProIV (and dabbles in VIP), I want to hear that VIP is starting to attract a larger following.

Obviously, people will always leave one technology for another - and usually be quite animated in their reasons for doing so.

Boards like this can give a pretty skewed view too because they attract far more rants than raves.

I would be curious to hear about folks who have never used ProIV, but picked up and started using VIP because they found it powerful.

Too bad that it didn't work out for Tyrone...

Regards,

Joseph

Actually, we booted him out because he was rubbish at 5-a-side apart from the occasionaly stunning save when he was in goal (for our US friends, I'm talking about football, the beautiful game).

As for VIP, I can't comment on it as I refuse to use it. From the small bits I've have been cruelly exposed to, I have not been impressed....and that's being polite.

#60 Guest_Guest_Scott Malyon_*

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 05:04 PM

So Rob. Did you ever recover any of the balls that you hoofed into the sea in Karlskrona .... :D



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