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What environment are you using the most?


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Poll: What environment are you using the most? (149 member(s) have cast votes)

What environment are you using the most?

  1. Native (@MOD) (34 votes [22.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.82%

  2. Native (@MOD Glovia) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Native (ProAide) (11 votes [7.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.38%

  4. Native (Dev Studio) (12 votes [8.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.05%

  5. SuperLayer (15 votes [10.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.07%

  6. SuperLayer (Glovia) (28 votes [18.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.79%

  7. VIP (42 votes [28.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.19%

  8. Other (7 votes [4.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.70%

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#16 Guest_Likely To Remain Disappointed_*

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 01:34 PM

Hi Tyrone,

I've been following this discussion that you and davethehun have been having.  I must say that I am tending to side with davethhun on this matter.  I myself have just recently moved from the native PRO-IV and started using VIP and have found it a lot faster and easier to use.  It doesn't work as a windows product would it but it is not a full windows product yet, that may come with time so limitations should be excepted.

I also feel you are been quite harsh calling the product s**t when there must of been a lot of work gone into it and it's not that bad.  You wouldn't like it if somebody called one of your systems s**t after you'd just spent ages developing it, I know I wouldn't.


Strider,

I agree with you that its not nice when an application you write is slated with words like dogs dinner and slightly more emotionally charged words like utter s**t.

However, if I write an application and people think its crap, they just have to go buy another product. If I totally change an existing application and the current users think its crap, they can stay with the old version or go buy another product. However, when a crap application is forced upon its current clients and the older applications become 'unsupported' then as an end user I'm entitled to say its crap without feeling too sorry for the developers feeling.

#17 Guest_Interested Bystander_*

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 02:43 PM

The amount of time spent on any particular task has no relevance as to whether it is a praiseworthy exercise..

Remember that tool calling himself an artist who spent more than 6 months "creating" a pile of old car tyres for an art display a few years back?

Was it:

a) An praiseworthy artistic masterpiece revealing hidden nuances of the human psyche
;) A bunch of old tyres dumped in a pile

I think you know the answer.

Just because he spent half a year driving back and forth to the dump slinging dirty lumps of rubber out of the back of his van doesnt mean he should be congratulated for it. It was an expensive waste of time.

VIP was Pro-IVs chance to make something genuinely praiseworthy for a change. Their chance to unite the developer community. They had the time. They had the budget. They had everything required to produce something really good, consistent and reliable.

Unfortunately all they managed to come up with was the IT equivalent of a pile of old Dunlops...

ps. Did you know that an anagram of "davethehun" is "he ate hun vd"...?

#18 Mike Nicholson

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:08 AM

Hmm, well I've never had this discussion before ;-)

Firstly, I did a fair bit of development in VIP a little while back and was about ready to fling the PC out of the window - preferably to land on somebody that had designed it.

I think that seems to be most people's initial response, at least if they are working with functions of any size and complexity. After that it does get a _little_ easier to use as you start to find some of the work arounds and short cuts.

Having said that - I still hate it. If I'd written it I would be embarrassed.

However, if I write an application and people think its crap, they just have to go buy another product.


Now this is the problem isn't it. There isn't another product as yet. ProIV are trying to force people to this and stop them using tools which worked fine (mostly) e.g. ProAide. Not perfect but nowhere near as flawed as VIP and 10 times as pretty to look at ;-)

Rob's IDE goes a long way towards sorting out this issue and when this becomes available for developers I think you'll find that there are very few people out there that still want to use VIP.

Cheers

Mike

#19 Guest_Historian_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 06:55 AM

Hmm, well I've never had this discussion before ;-)


My research indicates in was back in the winter of 01 around the time of the 'flicker-free' debacle and the 'updating constants' wars

Only the names have changed - click here (only once, this wasn't written in VIP)

Did we ever decide if its possible 1=0

#20 Mike Nicholson

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 07:00 AM

Did we ever decide if its possible 1=0


Mathematically, philosophically or within ProIV ??? :-)

#21 Guest_Historian_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 07:10 AM

Within ProIV....even my god-son, Historian Junior knows it's impossible for a constant to change and last time I saw him his ambition was to watch his DVD of Spiderman 2 dressed up in his Spiderman outfit.

#22 Rob Donovan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 09:40 AM

Just tried the 1=0 BUG on the latest version.

It seems to be worse now...

If you try to assign a value to a parameter that is passed as a literal (by accident of course) in a global function, and you assign the literal to 0 , then once the global lscall has finished the calling function just exists immediately, without doing any more processing....

If you assign it to any other number, it changes the literal to that value for the remainder of the function, as it did before...

I would have thought that by now the kernel would have been coping with this, since we made such a noise about it.

Rob D.

#23 Guest_Disappointed_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 09:45 AM

Heh .. I can see the code now.

IF 0 # 0 THEN
FNEXIT
ENDIF

#24 Guest_Disappointed_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 09:51 AM

Oops... I do apologise for my stupidity. This would be more like the code but its not as funny!

#X = 0 + 1

IF #X # 1 THEN
FNEXIT
ENDIF

#25 Guest_Pro-IV Sage_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 10:52 AM

All

You are going to have to get used to VIP as when Pro-IV stop genning from the old bootstraps and gen from the VIP source instead you will not be able to use native any longer. That day is coming!

VIP might not be perfect but it works and it is the best development environment for Pro-IV at the moment.

I was very frustrated at first but you do get used to it and there are not many bugs in the single developer version which by the way has over 400 downloads!

Keep trying!!

#26 Guest_ProIV Onion_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 10:59 AM

You are going to have to get used to VIP as when Pro-IV stop genning from the old bootstraps


There are alternatives to ProIV as all the companies moving away from it will testify to.

#27 Donald Miller

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:11 AM

Don't you remember when programmers used to complain about @MODX ? Or about Pro IV in general ?

People have been complaining about it for years. People have been saying Pro IV is a dying language for over two decades. We are all entitled to our opinion, but please change the record.

I didn't like VIP when I started using it either, but I persevered. At the start development was slower, but now it's up to speed and possibly quicker. It's hard to gauge as you can do so much more.

Robs IDE will become another "arrow to our bow" but it won't replace VIP and VIP won't replace Robs IDE. And you'll have to learn how to use that too.

Any development tool has to be learned. The better you learn it the better you can use it. Whinging about it won't generate any revenue.
Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anytthing at all

#28 Guest_ProIV Onion_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:18 AM

People have been complaining about it for years. People have been saying Pro IV is a dying language for over two decades.


The fact is that it IS a dying language and most developers that use it (that I know) aspire to getting away from it.

Why shouldnt people whinge about it?

#29 Guest_Marketing man with red socks and_*

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:23 AM

I know how to settle this. Why don't ProIV make the source code freely available so anyone can create and market development utilities. Obviously, no-one will be able to create anything better than VIP so there is nothing to worry about........

.....or is there ???

#30 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:18 PM

Hi All

I have persisted with VIP over the last few days and I'm beginning to change my mind. There seems to be more sense to the way it's laid out than first meets the eye. The various posts from Donald, Davethehun and Strider have actually thrown light on why VIP is the way it is.

There are IDEs that slavishly follow the Microsoft route - and those that follow the Mac (although to some they may seem variations on a theme). VIP is the 'third way' in application development, cutting its own furrow out there on its own...

Whenever VIP trips up the unwary, with the inconsistent and bizarre use of 'windows' furniture, it's just another dig at orthodoxy. I now smile to myself with satisfaction that I am programming with the 'in crowd' now. Us rebels!

The developers of VIP clearly have to be congratulated for their brave stand against the continuing dominance of the Steve Jobs/Bill Gates sponsored GUIs. If it means VIP is widely perceived as being counter-intuitive, counter-productive, and inconsistent, it's a small price to pay.

Developers of VIP - carry on the good work!



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