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What environment are you using the most?


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Poll: What environment are you using the most? (149 member(s) have cast votes)

What environment are you using the most?

  1. Native (@MOD) (34 votes [22.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.82%

  2. Native (@MOD Glovia) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Native (ProAide) (11 votes [7.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.38%

  4. Native (Dev Studio) (12 votes [8.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.05%

  5. SuperLayer (15 votes [10.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.07%

  6. SuperLayer (Glovia) (28 votes [18.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.79%

  7. VIP (42 votes [28.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.19%

  8. Other (7 votes [4.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.70%

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#1 Rob Donovan

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:27 PM

Hi,

Just thought I would see what environments people are still using...

Ta,

Rob D.

#2 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 05:28 PM

Wow 29 people are using VIP! I feel sorry for them.

I’ve started trying to learn VIP in the past couple of days and there’s been moments when I’ve been near to giving up. Why? Most well designed commercial products are easily used and understood, with a stress on consistency across all components of the package. But here in VIPworld, there’s no consistency. Anywhere.

Let’s look at the basic GUI used artefacts first of all.
So far in my two days, I have found four versions of tabbed panes. Three different scrolling artefacts. Why? There’s no consistency in colours or fonts; toolbars are confusing (to say the least), with no reason for icon placement (it’s random). There are four contexts where icons have been found (so far). The application menu (i.e. the client menu) is also found wanting. I keep going to ‘File’ then ‘open’ to open a function. Ha ha! A beginner’s mistake. Why does this application have to work differently to ALL others I have yet enountered? There’s no excuse. There may have been once, in the middle 1990’s but NOT in 2005.

Next, how do the various components work together?
The tools and windows work differently to expectations (i.e., all other Windows applications you have used before). For example, you can't copy and paste everywhere, and there’s no ‘undo’ or ‘select all’. Many windows have to be closed to continue development which makes a mockery of it being a ‘windows’ environment. And why are half the windows closed with an ‘Okay’ when I want to Cancel out? (It’s so random...). And why can’t I close half of them with the windows ‘close’ artefact in the top right? Why have it there in the first place? (That made me angry). I suppose to make it look like a windows system. I don’t think they’re kidding anyone.

Conclusions.
It has obviously been built with no access to logical thought processes. There's no unifying concepts either in behaviour or appearance. In comparison to VB.Net using Microsoft’s Virtual Studio IDE, this package looks like it was slung together by members of a school committee who never met. I can’t understand their lack of skill in putting this together. I cannot see how this cat’s cradle of a package ever made it to commercial launch. I’m normally a pretty easygoing guy, and just get on with it, but I’ve never experienced such a complete and obvious lack of design. It’s a shame really, as I was looking forward to trying VIP, and I now know the sad disappointing truth. It really is the worst piece of s**t I’ve ever had to work with.


Notes
Five different types of tabbed panes:
1. Go to the ‘open’ icon in the toolbar
2. Try developing a function – they’re sprouting out the bottom of the pane!
3. Editbox property
4. VIP forms designer dynamic/static tabs
5. ‘Tools’ menu – hey there on the left here!

Three different scrolling artefacts (all seen in function development screens):
1. Linkage screen – they look like strange water pipes
2. Structure screen – at least the tree on the left has a windows scrollbar.
3. Dynamics screen – here we have the old SuperLayer ‘fake’ windows scrollbar

Four different places for icons:
1. Taskbar
2. Near the foot of the development screens
3. On menus
4. Above AND below the logic editor

I could go on...

#3 Rob Donovan

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 08:31 AM

Hmmm,

Just what I've been saying for years, but they don’t seem to want to / be able to change it.

Before I started ProIV IDE I tried writing something it in GUI ProIV, since that would have been easiest. But I came to the conclusion that ProIV just is not the tool for building a full IDE for a language.... and then turned to VB.

I've tried to tell ProIV many times, that they needed to make it more 'windows' and standard features like most other software, but they clearly don’t think that it’s important.

But it’s the only way to get people (esp. outside of ProIV) to use it.

The absolute worse thing that was done was to create a new source code set away from the original bootstrap files. I'm not sure why this was done, it just seems to cause more problems, and was certainly not needed to make a decent development env.

Having the source in 2 places could never be a good idea, and also causes many problems for development sites.

Because VIP has to import the code into the new bootstraps, it could (and has) caused problems. Therefore once migrated into VIP you should do a complete system test of your product, which is costly and takes time.

Rob D.

#4 davethehun

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:28 PM

Tyrone… Get a life!!

So what if VIP doesn’t conform to your exacting standards? Who cares? Certainly, not me!

Until relatively recently, I used native Pro-IV for many years and considered it to do, exactly what it said on the tin, rapid application development. It managed to do this due to an easy to understand concept and small command set and, despite weaknesses in its editing ability e.g. finding, copying and moving objects.

I now use VIP and find that the weaknesses have been addressed admirably and find development even quicker. No, it’s not perfect, but its nothing like the travesty you portray!

I say, “Well Done” to the developers, “Carry on the good work”.

David

#5 Guest_pro4user_*

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:50 PM

"it’s not perfect"... its far far from perfect

And telling the developers 'Well Done' for producing that is just making them think they have done a good job and nothing needs to change

#6 Cleve Haynes

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:57 PM

"it’s not perfect"... its far far from perfect

And telling the developers 'Well Done' for producing that is just making them think they have done a good job and nothing needs to change


More likely they broke the golden rule of GUI programming - never let developers dictate look and feel. It may do what it was designed to do, but you'll probably end up with something that looks like a dogs breakfast.

#7 Rob Donovan

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:01 PM

exacting standards


Its not really 'Tyrones' exacting standards, I think tyrone is just comparing it to most other Windows Apps out there, and frankly VIP does not follow any Windows standards what so ever....Which the rest of the GUI world seems too.

Rob D.

#8 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:05 PM

Tyrone… Get a life!!

So what if VIP doesn’t conform to your exacting standards? Who cares? Certainly, not me!

Until relatively recently, I used native Pro-IV for many years and considered it to do, exactly what it said on the tin, rapid application development. It managed to do this due to an easy to understand concept and small command set and, despite weaknesses in its editing ability e.g. finding, copying and moving objects.

I now use VIP and find that the weaknesses have been addressed admirably and find development even quicker. No, it’s not perfect, but its nothing like the travesty you portray!

I say, “Well Done” to the developers, “Carry on the good work”.

David

Davethehun, sorry if I don't live down to your sloppy standards, but I feel I can differenciate between good and bad user interfaces. Why don't you get a life and become less lazy, less tolerant of bad design, and less complacent, give up on VIP, and use a GUI that conforms to some universal standard instead of this 'toytown' version that VIP uses?

I have only been looking at this VIP abomination for four days and here are some further observations:

Yet another type of tabbed pane (in the VIP screen designer, when you click properties)...

...and the checkboxes implementation made me laugh out loud..! You have to get 'focus' before you can turn them on or off. That is so unusual for windows applications. I would say unique.

I will be moving back to character Pro-IV or SuperLayer as soon as possible.

Yes, I have a life thanks, and as soon as I rid myself of VIP, it's just gonna get so much better!

#9 Guest_Disappointed_*

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 08:42 AM

exacting standards


Its not really 'Tyrones' exacting standards, I think tyrone is just comparing it to most other Windows Apps out there, and frankly VIP does not follow any Windows standards what so ever....Which the rest of the GUI world seems too.

Rob D.

Heh ... VIP doesnt even conform to its own 'standards'. When building an application from scratch there is a great opportunity to decide upon the look and feel of that application BEFORE development starts. You then enforce these 'standards' across the whole application.

You definitely don't let different groups of developers just start coding with each group deciding upon how 'their' area is going to look.

C'mon Northgate, don't kill PROIV. Produce a real 'windows' development application that people want to use as opposed to the current dogs dinner you've put before us.

#10 davethehun

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 09:42 AM

Davethehun, sorry if I don't live down to your sloppy standards, but I feel I can differenciate between good and bad user interfaces. Why don't you get a life and become less lazy, less tolerant of bad design, and less complacent, give up on VIP, and use a GUI that conforms to some universal standard instead of this 'toytown' version that VIP uses?


Tyrone, how can you get so angry and insulting over a piece of software? Let’s get back to basics… the whole point of RAD is to develop functional systems quickly and easily, and Pro-IV (especially with VIP) allows this. My clients don’t care tuppence about how it is done as long as it’s available tomorrow, it works and it adds value. The result is everything!

No software in this world is perfect (although Excel comes close), but if it enables you to satisfy your objectives, then you have to live with the limitations. I personally don’t let the limitations hold me back, if that’s being sloppy, then I’m guilty as charged!

All products evolve and I’m sure that VIP will be no exception. I don’t think for a minute the developers are sat there thinking, “This is a finished product”. They’re probably aware of its limitations just as fully as you are, and will no doubt look iron them out as time goes on.

To put it politely, I think you’re being over critical of somebody else’s hard work; VIP is a good product and in no way does it deserve the lambasting you gave it. I re-iterate, “It does what it says on the tin”. There is no way you can call it s**t, just because it’s not a true windows product. Get off your high horse!

David

#11 Guest_VIP_RIP_*

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:17 AM

Using VIP, my productivity has gone down 2 fold.

Its slow, badly designed and just plain horrible to use.

And they have had many years to correct the problems, so I don’t think its anything to do with them 'ironing' them out.

My advice, jump ship and learn something else!

#12 Guest_Still Disappointed_*

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:19 AM

Davethehun, sorry if I don't live down to your sloppy standards, but I feel I can differenciate between good and bad user interfaces. Why don't you get a life and become less lazy, less tolerant of bad design, and less complacent, give up on VIP, and use a GUI that conforms to some universal standard instead of this 'toytown' version that VIP uses?


Tyrone, how can you get so angry and insulting over a piece of software? Let’s get back to basics… the whole point of RAD is to develop functional systems quickly and easily, and Pro-IV (especially with VIP) allows this. My clients don’t care tuppence about how it is done as long as it’s available tomorrow, it works and it adds value. The result is everything!

No software in this world is perfect (although Excel comes close), but if it enables you to satisfy your objectives, then you have to live with the limitations. I personally don’t let the limitations hold me back, if that’s being sloppy, then I’m guilty as charged!

All products evolve and I’m sure that VIP will be no exception. I don’t think for a minute the developers are sat there thinking, “This is a finished product”. They’re probably aware of its limitations just as fully as you are, and will no doubt look iron them out as time goes on.

To put it politely, I think you’re being over critical of somebody else’s hard work; VIP is a good product and in no way does it deserve the lambasting you gave it. I re-iterate, “It does what it says on the tin”. There is no way you can call it s**t, just because it’s not a true windows product. Get off your high horse!

David

Hi Davethehun,

You are obviously working in a really fast paced working environment if you have to deliver the software to your client so quickly (Quote : 'available tomorrow'). Correct me if I'm wrong but its sounds like that sort of environment is unable to support any QA procedures except for maybe a little unit testing by the developer. And you probably have little or no time to discuss your solution with other developers before your code goes live?. Do you have screen standards? And if yes is someone making sure that these standards are being adhered to by both you and other developers (or do you work by yourself?)

Coincidently it seems like the initial release of VIP must have been written with same short leadtimes and with the same sort of directives to the developers :

1. Heres your area. Make sure its available by tomorrow.
2. Dont worry about how it looks, as long as it works.
3. Don't worry about bugs or alienating the existing PROIV users with a product that is not immediately intuitive since its not (and I quote) a 'Finished Product'. We can make things better in future.

Sometimes in a project its better just to start again....

#13 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:22 AM

Davethehun, sorry if I don't live down to your sloppy standards, but I feel I can differenciate between good and bad user interfaces. Why don't you get a life and become less lazy, less tolerant of bad design, and less complacent, give up on VIP, and use a GUI that conforms to some universal standard instead of this 'toytown' version that VIP uses?


Tyrone, how can you get so angry and insulting over a piece of software? Let’s get back to basics… the whole point of RAD is to develop functional systems quickly and easily, and Pro-IV (especially with VIP) allows this. My clients don’t care tuppence about how it is done as long as it’s available tomorrow, it works and it adds value. The result is everything!

No software in this world is perfect (although Excel comes close), but if it enables you to satisfy your objectives, then you have to live with the limitations. I personally don’t let the limitations hold me back, if that’s being sloppy, then I’m guilty as charged!

All products evolve and I’m sure that VIP will be no exception. I don’t think for a minute the developers are sat there thinking, “This is a finished product”. They’re probably aware of its limitations just as fully as you are, and will no doubt look iron them out as time goes on.

To put it politely, I think you’re being over critical of somebody else’s hard work; VIP is a good product and in no way does it deserve the lambasting you gave it. I re-iterate, “It does what it says on the tin”. There is no way you can call it s**t, just because it’s not a true windows product. Get off your high horse!

David

Davethehun,
I didn't mean my advice to be taken as an insult. But I won't apologise, as I really mean it. I wanted to vent my spleen after seeing some really bad design. Yes, it DOES get me angry. There are reasons for this. You can see the comments made by others in this thread: everyone except yourself (whoever you are!) can see that the front end is completely idiosyncratic. This means that to use VIP, you have to invest time and effort to learn how to even start developing in it. This time and effort should not be wasted in working what water pipe pictures mean, or clicking on window close crosses that don't work ONLY in this application, or a multitude of other ridiculous 'features'.

I'm angry that developers at Northgate have wasted time and effort in building this when they could have come up with a convincing piece of software. It's not too difficult to do so - Rob Donovan's IDE has been developed with NO budget and NO spare time, yet he's produced a product that can stand alongside those of Microsoft or Adobe.

I'm angry that VIP has been built in such a way to cause such polarised opinions. VIP could have been the assured future for us all. We could have all been sailing the good ship GUI by now rather than being cast adrift in the S.S. TITANIC C*CK-UP.

#14 strider

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 12:55 PM

Hi Tyrone,

I've been following this discussion that you and davethehun have been having. I must say that I am tending to side with davethhun on this matter. I myself have just recently moved from the native PRO-IV and started using VIP and have found it a lot faster and easier to use. It doesn't work as a windows product would it but it is not a full windows product yet, that may come with time so limitations should be excepted.

I also feel you are been quite harsh calling the product s**t when there must of been a lot of work gone into it and it's not that bad. You wouldn't like it if somebody called one of your systems s**t after you'd just spent ages developing it, I know I wouldn't.

#15 Tyrone Hopes

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 01:20 PM

Dear strider
You mention it's not a windows product 'yet'. I was harsh calling it s**t? Welcome to the world strider. In the rough tough commercial world of systems development, you can't fall back on excuses like that. VIP limitations should have been sorted before it left the factory door not after. If it's not meant to be a windows compatible product, why make it look like one? This is probably why VIP is not more widely used (27 people use it... and counting!)

If I was responsible for anything like the tomfoolery that is called VIP, I would expect criticism. I would not expect any credit from anyone for the mere hard work that's gone into it, specially if a product turns out to look like a complete pig's ear. I mean - trying to close a window by clicking the 'x' in the corner causes an error saying 'Window close not allowed' !!!....do you honestly think that should be taken seriously?

Have you ever found another windows style product do that?

Cheers
Tyrone



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