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#16 Guest_Co-Co_*

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 04:53 PM

Who you calling a clown?

Mike, you have a very good point, Rob, can you disable all these guest logins? I could be anyone. :rolleyes:

#17 Guest_Sinbad_*

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 09:48 AM

don't hide behind anonymity

Now, Now, Mikey...

Anonymity does have its place. One might lose their job if one were to devulge something about a practice that one shouldn't. :-" Let's face it...as the ProIV watering hole dries up, and the supply of Croc's dwindle, the best way to find other Croc's is to ask the Croc's already at the hole. This gives them powers that they should not have...and it is wrong to hire someone based solely on their friendship with another Croc already at the hole, instead of interviewing ALL available Croc's to find the best addition to the collective.

Anonymity allows us, that believe this, to voice our objections without the fear of losing our jobs. You may be safe, over there in Birmingham, but those of us that contract cannot always plaster their faces on the internet without fear of being ousted just for believing that the clients needs should come before the contractors.

LONG LIVE ANONYMITY!!!

#18 Mike Wright

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 11:13 AM

;) Yeah ok man, good point. Free speech is important, and if you're contracting then you've gotta be careful.

And it is 'really' nice in Birmingham, the most in-land place in England, away from the hassle of sunshine, beaches, attractive women, etc... :rolleyes:

Contracting sounds better by the day Sinbad - are there really crocodiles and stuff?
Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#19 Guest_Sinbad_*

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 02:23 PM

- are there really crocodiles and stuff?

You tell me Mike...

When a manager hires a contractor, don't they go through great lengths, interviewing every candidate, asking pertinent questions, to find the most knowledgable person for the job that will give them the biggest BANG for the pound?

But when contractors are given this responsibility, the person they tend to hire can not be considered more than adequate :rolleyes: because they do not bother to interview everyone. They settle on the person that they want to hire for their needs and not the clients. Ok, sure...the person knows ProIV, but they cannot be considered the best ProIV person available, for the above reasons, and that is a disservice to the client.

Don't get me wrong, Mike, the chaps here are great, both socially and as programmers. But when you don't agree with something you believe is a disservice to the client and morally wrong, and you feel conflicted about what to do about it because you've seen others ousted, and branned for life as a non-conformer if you say anything...you tell me, Mike, - are there really crocodiles and stuff?

#20 Mike Wright

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 02:53 PM

Dude, I sympathize with you - it's like a jungle out there.

The age old choice for people in our game is to either:

* Get a nice salaried full time job working on the same old system day in day out
* or go contracting, see the world, earn more (?) dosh and get more experience.

Contracting always sounds fantastic to people (like me) who haven't done it, but I imagine it can be competitive and political.

Just try and stay sane man - that, in itself, is an achievement. :rolleyes:
Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#21 Guest_BS Bruce_*

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 06:49 AM

- are there really crocodiles and stuff?

You tell me Mike...

When a manager hires a contractor, don't they go through great lengths, interviewing every candidate, asking pertinent questions, to find the most knowledgable person for the job that will give them the biggest BANG for the pound?

But when contractors are given this responsibility, the person they tend to hire can not be considered more than adequate :huh: because they do not bother to interview everyone. They settle on the person that they want to hire for their needs and not the clients. Ok, sure...the person knows ProIV, but they cannot be considered the best ProIV person available, for the above reasons, and that is a disservice to the client.

Don't get me wrong, Mike, the chaps here are great, both socially and as programmers. But when you don't agree with something you believe is a disservice to the client and morally wrong, and you feel conflicted about what to do about it because you've seen others ousted, and branned for life as a non-conformer if you say anything...you tell me, Mike, - are there really crocodiles and stuff?

I would never, ever hire anyone I didn't know - unless thay could come to me and prove that they could give commitment, competence and provide star studded references to back up those claims.

#22 Guest_Jack Sparrow_*

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 07:29 AM

Sinbad, you're talking out of your hat mate. In my experience managers do a crap job of interviewing Pro-IV contractors because they have no idea about Pro-IV and they are more interested in getting someone on a low rate.

As a contractor who has interviewed other contractors for my current site, I have to say that I was looking for the best man for the job. But, one of the things that I've found is most contractors (and permies for that matter) lie on their CV's when applying for a job. I've seen some contractors who looked great on paper, interviewed well, but still turned out to be crap (or at best average).

Sometimes you have to take someone you know - you can vouch for their skills, know they have a personality which will go over well on site and allow them to work well in the team and in some cases (such as ISIS) they have worked on the system before and don't have such a steep learning curve.

In then end, if you can't handle this aspect of contracting, maybe you should go permie.

#23 Mike Wright

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 07:54 AM

:huh: Eek... !

Quick, climb a tree Sinbad - the crocodiles are out !

Edited by Mike Wright, 07 April 2004 - 07:56 AM.

Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#24 Stef

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 08:03 AM

I had to help out on interviews for someone to work Support here, when one of them was presented with a Pro-IV screen he blinked as if someone had just stuck a singing Martian under his nose. He then said that if he got stuck he had plenty of friends he could ring to help him out. See ya mate!

#25 Mike Wright

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 08:55 AM

That's how I got my job Stef.

I soon got the hang of it though. People tend to make too much of this Pro-IV lark sometimes :huh:

PS Who's this Pro-IV Colonel bloke my boss keeps talking about?
Magicians disappear all the time, but as soon as a regular person does it, everyone is all scared.

#26 Guest_Curious Peter_*

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:35 AM

Pro-Iv Colonel is the top geezer who makes sure your bootstraps are well enough pollished that he can see his variables reflected on them.

Now get down and give me 5.

#27 Phil

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:36 AM

So it's nothing to do with Chicken or Tower Burgers ? :huh:

#28 Stef

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:34 AM

Who's this Pro-IV Colonel bloke my boss keeps talking about?

Any idea which Company/Division he belongs to? :huh:

#29 Guest_Sinbad_*

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:35 AM

Sinbad, you're talking out of your hat mate.  In my experience managers do a crap job of interviewing Pro-IV contractors because they have no idea about Pro-IV and they are more interested in getting someone on a low rate.


Sometimes you have to take someone you know - you can vouch for their skills, know they have a personality which will go over well on site and allow them to work well in the team and in some cases (such as ISIS) they have worked on the system before and don't have such a steep learning curve.

Yes Jack,

Managers that do not know ProIV do a lousy job of hiring, but if you would read the entire thread and not just jump in with your 2 pence opinion, you'd see that my concern with the way ProIV is going is that it doesn't matter how much you know anymore, it's WHO you know now that gets you the job.

You are right...sometimes you do have to REFER someone that you know. But let that person prove himself against all other applicants to see if he truly is the best person or if he's just someone who can party hardy.

All I am saying Jack, is that instead of doing a half witted job of interviewing, interview all candidates, asking coding questions, questions about timing cycle, etc., to weed out the good from the bad. Do you know that when I was interviewed for my ISIS position, nothing was ever asked about the timing cycle? There were about 10 questions on code, but the answers I gave could've been coming from a book, and then the contractors started asking what was my favorite book for GS!!! Granted, the job was practically mine and the interview was just a formality, but this way is WRONG! I cannot say that I got the job because I was the best. It pays the bills but eats at me everytime we say we're looking for more contractors because I know the truth.

As for whether they have a personality which will go over well on site and allow them to work well in the team, Jack, a contractor is suppose to be professional and leave any problems at the door when he/she comes in, and perform professionally during business hours. If he cannot, then he should be ousted, irregardless of how long they've been there! Cast the problem aside and move on.

To give contractors absolute hiring power is not in the clients best interest because as I,and you, said...they will hire the people they know, without finding out if there is someone better first.

Is there a simple solution for this delema...No. As you said, most managers do not know the questions to ask and probably will look for the cheapest solution. Perhaps what needs to be done is for a list to be generated at each site that the manager would ask. But this wouldn't stop the contractors from getting the people they want in by sending them a copy of the questions.

I do agree that unless you have a ProIV savy manager that contractors must be a part of the hiring process...but not absolute.

#30 Phil

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:20 AM

Sinbad, you're talking out of your hat mate.  In my experience managers do a crap job of interviewing Pro-IV contractors because they have no idea about Pro-IV and they are more interested in getting someone on a low rate.


Sometimes you have to take someone you know - you can vouch for their skills, know they have a personality which will go over well on site and allow them to work well in the team and in some cases (such as ISIS) they have worked on the system before and don't have such a steep learning curve.

Yes Jack,

Managers that do not know ProIV do a lousy job of hiring, but if you would read the entire thread and not just jump in with your 2 pence opinion, you'd see that my concern with the way ProIV is going is that it doesn't matter how much you know anymore, it's WHO you know now that gets you the job.

You are right...sometimes you do have to REFER someone that you know. But let that person prove himself against all other applicants to see if he truly is the best person or if he's just someone who can party hardy.

All I am saying Jack, is that instead of doing a half witted job of interviewing, interview all candidates, asking coding questions, questions about timing cycle, etc., to weed out the good from the bad. Do you know that when I was interviewed for my ISIS position, nothing was ever asked about the timing cycle? There were about 10 questions on code, but the answers I gave could've been coming from a book, and then the contractors started asking what was my favorite book for GS!!! Granted, the job was practically mine and the interview was just a formality, but this way is WRONG! I cannot say that I got the job because I was the best. It pays the bills but eats at me everytime we say we're looking for more contractors because I know the truth.

As for whether they have a personality which will go over well on site and allow them to work well in the team, Jack, a contractor is suppose to be professional and leave any problems at the door when he/she comes in, and perform professionally during business hours. If he cannot, then he should be ousted, irregardless of how long they've been there! Cast the problem aside and move on.

To give contractors absolute hiring power is not in the clients best interest because as I,and you, said...they will hire the people they know, without finding out if there is someone better first.

Is there a simple solution for this delema...No. As you said, most managers do not know the questions to ask and probably will look for the cheapest solution. Perhaps what needs to be done is for a list to be generated at each site that the manager would ask. But this wouldn't stop the contractors from getting the people they want in by sending them a copy of the questions.

I do agree that unless you have a ProIV savy manager that contractors must be a part of the hiring process...but not absolute.

Well said Sinbad.



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