Posted 20 May 2003 - 12:21 PM
The single user developer is a great idea, but more for the existing ProIV developers out there who might start a project on their own. Fingers crossed a few individuals may come up with some new enterprises! I can't see it enticing new programmers unless the programming environment is more like VB or Java etc etc...
Posted 20 May 2003 - 01:10 PM
We are using PROIV because our application is written PROIV. We looked at VB and PowerBuilder and decided to stay with PROIV because of 5.0. We have almost replaced all of our Green Screen (1980 Archecture) with GUI. For you poor souls that have to stay Green Screen good luck.
Of the 35 years that I have been writting software, I have used 13 of 14 different languages and once you learn your way around PROIV, it really is not much different than any thing else.
Posted 20 May 2003 - 01:42 PM
I think the ProIV language is excellent once you learn it, its fairly simple to use.
Writing and following 'Updates' is so simple in ProIV compared to any other language (once you know the timing cycle).
The only problem I can see is the development environment.
I thought that since ProIV had the chance to start a new environment, we would have seen something great.. but all we got was VIP.
If you show VIP to someone with no ProIV background and only VB, Delphi or C... they would laugh at VIP.
I'm trying to get a decent development environment written, but it does take some time. I want to get it right, make it as 'standard' as possible and easy for people to understand and use.
Also, the cost is quite high, yes Oracle can charge huge amounts, but then they can afford to cut off people because they have enough. ProIV is a very small world and as far as I can see, its not getting any bigger.. possibly only smaller.
Posted 20 May 2003 - 04:41 PM
Oracle can be licensed per processor OR per named user.
The STANDARD edition is $15,000 per processor OR $300 per named user.
(Only the ENTERPRISE edition is $40,000 per processor when licensed that way and only the fortune 1000 NEED that)
There are also licenses with 2- and 4-year terms at reduced prices.
The minimum number of named users for the standard edition is 5.
The standard edition can be licensed on a named-user basis for hardware with up to 4 processors.
So you can have Oracle database standard edition for 5 named users on a box with up to four processors for $1500 (this is a perpetual license).
Go figure. More detail available at http://oraclestore.oracle.com
Posted 20 May 2003 - 06:58 PM
Posted 20 May 2003 - 11:57 PM
That swipe at us "Green Screens" felt a bit below the belt.
Like you, I work for an entity that does not have the resources to re-code the existing PRO-IV app into v5.5 or whatever.
In the even that a new owner comes along; I will make it crystal clear to that owner what the consequences would be if the computer died. That is my biggest fear every am when I fire up the "box'.
I guess the current owner figures I can always pull a rabbit of the hat; like the time the hard drive quit.
One thing I absolutely hate about GUI interfaces is that they are CPU HOGS! Give me a stripped down Unix O/S any day.
At one time PRO had promise, today, I am not so sure anymore.
Posted 21 May 2003 - 01:10 AM
If that is what the customer/users like/want ... then that is what they should have!
There is no point giving a guy a mouse to work with in the middle of a factory, where there is loads of dirt, dust and grease to enter his orders etc into... it will just stop working after a while.
However, if you have a system that you need to sell to many customers and is a front end system, then obviously GUI is a must.
One place I worked at, the customer just did not want to spend the time/money on making the system GUI, since it was only used in-house. They had too much work on new projects and getting software enhanced to cope with aggressive marketing campaigns.
Posted 21 May 2003 - 08:02 AM
Where I currently work that is exactly the situation, dealing with Tyre depots.
Also your friendly Tyre fitter has been using the green screen since he was knee high to a grass hopper and doesn't have a need (or the time) for anything else.
Posted 21 May 2003 - 12:55 PM
Many of our employees are under 30 and have made several comments about Green Screen (Stone Age). They have grown up using the internet and windows.
With Green Screen, our users felt that they were fighting the computer to get their job done. With our GUI app, the couputer is helping them get their job doneand we are helping our users to better manage the staff requirements.
Another example, one group of our collectors, it required four people using Green Screen. Now with GUI, we are exceeding the collection efforts of four with just two people. The cost savings of two people will buy a real nice CPU.
Do not get me wrong, I have developed in green screen for years but I have moved beyond that. From our Company Owner's point of view, the investment in software development, he can grow our business with out adding staff.
Posted 21 May 2003 - 10:43 PM
What do you do with an owner who figures he has not gotten his original investment (in the sdone age stuff) back; and you are trying to convince him that it needs to be replaced.
BTW, he tells me, "I don't want to learn to use a mouse!".
Example: i moved a couple of functions out from a crowded (in terms of sheer number of choices) menu, into one less crowded. I got rebuffed, "Don't change anything without my permission!" The problem is that the owner has the menu key sequences burned in like they were in a ROM.
One weekend, I had actually set up a windows machine with 4 serial ports, connected to 4 ports on the Unix box, and got 4 concurrent sessions up and runnng. Problem, you must use a mouse to switch between them. Thinking that this could solve a problem he sometimes encounters (needing to see data on two different screens at the same time); The problem - windows and a mouse. A good idea down the drain. What is that line about teaching an old dog? I told myself to stop "banging my head against the wall". People who are comfortable with windows eat up GUI; but there are still a lot of Trogladytes; who are terrified of it.
Posted 22 May 2003 - 06:22 AM
Main Entry: trog·lo·dyte
Etymology: Latin troglodytae, plural, from Greek trOglodytai, from trOglE hole, cave (akin to Greek trOgein to gnaw, Armenian aracem I lead to pasture, graze) + dyein to enter
1 : a member of a primitive people dwelling in caves
2 : a person resembling a troglodyte (as in reclusive habits or outmoded or reactionary attitudes)
- trog·lo·dyt·ic /"trä-gl&-'di-tik/ adjective
Posted 22 May 2003 - 04:41 PM
They could not figure out how and they spent two hours trying to figure it out. We then asked them to try the same thing with a prototype GUI app. It took them two minutes to complete the task. Our management reailized what the training saving would be.
When we hire a new person in one of our clinics, they spend their first week in the clinic and then come to home office for HR stuff and some policy training.
With the green screen software, the new person had to speed three weeks training before they could use the system. When you have over 500 clinic staff, you can quickly compute the cost savings.
With no training at all, our management uses our GUI app to monitor our users progress and use some dicision support software we have written.
We did not write the green screen software, but was part of the purchase when our founder bought the original clinics from another clinic group. The original clinic group bought the green screen app from some one else.
Posted 23 May 2003 - 12:41 AM
Like you, I recognize the savings, but our oerations is so much smaller. There are a lot of inefficienciesin our operations that could be removed with more modern software. Like faxing purchase orders. First you have to print them, then you have to fax them. Any up to date software, you just print to the fax modem and that is it!
The preblem here is (owner motivation) convincing an owner at retirement age that he shoulkd spend his dollars on new software. The way he feels: Why pay for it out of your pocket NOW, let someone else do it LATER? (Sounds like the thinking in Washington DC).
BTW: Trogladyte (or however it is spelled); I never correctly learned how to utilize that word, as I was expelled from the "University of Hard Knocks"
(where you don't get a diploma, you get a kick in the a==!
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